--- title: "What glory did Jesus have before the world was?" description: "The objection “In John 17:5 Jesus speaks of the glory He had with the Father before the world was, so the Son existed as a distinct person before creation.”, stated at full strength and answered from Scripture." url: "https://onegodapologetics.com/academy/lab/glory-before-the-world-was/" source: "One God Apologetics" section: "The Objection Lab" tags: ["godhead"] license: "Free to read and quote with attribution." --- # What glory did Jesus have before the world was? > The objection, in the words its strongest advocate would use: “In John 17:5 Jesus speaks of the glory He had with the Father before the world was, so the Son existed as a distinct person before creation.” *An objection answered at https://onegodapologetics.com/academy/lab/glory-before-the-world-was/* ## The objection at full strength “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was” (John 17:5). Jesus does not say the glory was planned for Him. He says He *had* it, and had it *with* the Father (παρὰ σοί (*para soi*)), before creation. A few verses later He grounds it in love: “thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:24). Love requires a lover and a beloved. The Word was “with God” in the beginning, and all things were made by Him (John 1:1–3). The only begotten Son is “in the bosom of the Father” (John 1:18). All things were created by Him and for Him (Col 1:16), and God made the worlds by His Son (Heb 1:2). Being in the form of God, the Son “made himself of no reputation” (Phil 2:6–7), a choice made before He was a man. This is an eternal Son, personally distinct from the Father, who took flesh. ## The ninety-second answer Jesus did pre-exist, as God: “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58). What did not pre-exist was a second person called the Son; the Son was “made of a woman” (Gal 4:4). John 17:5 speaks the language of God’s eternal purpose. Christ “was foreordained before the foundation of the world” (1 Pet 1:20), and believers were given grace “in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Tim 1:9) before they existed. The glory was His in God’s purpose before it was revealed. ## The five-minute answer **1. Be clear about what Oneness affirms.** Jesus pre-existed, because Jesus is God. The deity who dwelt in Him is the eternal God, who could say, “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58). The Word who was with God and was God (John 1:1) is God’s own self-expression, and that Word “was made flesh” (John 1:14). What Oneness denies is that a second divine person called “the Son” existed alongside the Father before the incarnation. Scripture dates the Son from the incarnation: > And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. > > — Luke 1:35 (KJV) Hebrews applies “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee” to Him, and speaks of God bringing “the firstbegotten into the world” (Heb 1:5–6). The Son has a beginning in time. The God who is in the Son does not. **2. Scripture speaks of future things as present in God’s purpose.** God “calleth those things which be not as though they were” (Rom 4:17). Notice how often the New Testament uses “before the foundation of the world” for things that did not yet exist: > Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, > > — 1 Peter 1:20 (KJV) > Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, > > — 2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV) Christ was “foreordained” before the foundation of the world. The Lamb was “slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13:8), though the crucifixion took place under Pontius Pilate. Believers were chosen in Him “before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4) and given grace “before the world began,” though none of them yet existed. Paul even says that those God foreknew He has already “glorified” (Rom 8:30). In each case something is truly given, and truly certain, in God’s purpose before it exists in history. **3. Read John 17 as a whole.** In the same prayer Jesus says, “the glory which thou gavest me I have given them” (John 17:22), though the disciples had not yet been glorified. “Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world” (17:24) stands beside “hast loved them, as thou hast loved me” (17:23). The prayer speaks of glory and love that are real in God’s eternal purpose and are now being brought to pass. So in 17:5 the Son, in His humanity, asks to receive the glory God purposed for Him from eternity, glory that belongs to Him because the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him. **4. A note on the word.** Some Oneness teachers have said that *doxa* itself means “planned glory.” It does not: > **Greek:** δόξα (*doxa*) [G1391] — glory, splendor, honor. The argument about God’s purpose comes from the context and the parallel texts, not from the word. **5. The creation texts.** Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:2 say God created by the one who is now the Son. Oneness writers read these of the Word, God’s own self-expression through whom He created, and of the Son as the goal God had in view: all things were created “for him” (Col 1:16). Philippians 2:6–7 describes one who, “being in the form of God,” took the form of a servant: God Himself, not a second divine person, humbling Himself to be found in fashion as a man. Before Nicaea, not everyone who defended the Son’s distinction held an eternal Son. Hippolytus, who wrote against the monarchians, still said that the Word before the incarnation was not yet “perfect Son.”[^1] John 17:5 does not require an eternal Son. ## The trap to avoid Don’t claim that the Greek word *doxa* means “the glory planned for Him.” It means glory. If you make a lexical claim you can’t support, a prepared opponent will expose it, and the rest of your answer will fall with it. Argue from the context: God’s foreknowledge, the “before the foundation of the world” texts, and John 17:22–24. And don’t say that Jesus did not pre-exist in any sense. He pre-existed as God. What you deny is an eternal *Son* as a second person, not the eternal deity of Jesus. ## A model answer I believe Jesus pre-existed. Jesus is God, and He said, “Before Abraham was, I am.” What I don’t find in Scripture is a second divine person called the Son existing before Bethlehem. The angel told Mary, “that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Paul says God sent His Son, “made of a woman.” So what is the glory Jesus had “with thee before the world was”? Scripture tells us how God speaks. He “calleth those things which be not as though they were.” Peter says Christ “was foreordained before the foundation of the world.” John calls Him the Lamb “slain from the foundation of the world,” though He was crucified in the first century. Paul says we were given grace “in Christ Jesus before the world began,” before any of us existed. And in the same prayer, John 17:22, Jesus says, “the glory which thou gavest me I have given them.” The disciples weren’t glorified yet. Glory given in God’s purpose is real before it’s revealed. So in John 17:5 the man Christ Jesus, on His way to the cross, asks for the glory God purposed for Him from eternity. It was always His, because in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead. That isn’t a second person. That’s God’s eternal plan, fulfilled in the flesh. ## The verses - John 17:5 - John 17:22–24 - John 8:58 - Luke 1:35 - 1 Peter 1:20 - 2 Timothy 1:9 - Revelation 13:8 - Romans 4:17 ## Notes [^1]: Hippolytus, Against Noetus. Early third century; ch. 1 (Noetus’s teaching and his examination by the presbyters), ch. 15 (the Word not yet “perfect Son” before the incarnation). English in Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5. ## Read the case in full - [Isaiah 9:6 and the Child Who Is Mighty God](https://onegodapologetics.com/library/isaiah-9-6-the-child-who-is-mighty-god/) — Isaiah 9:6 gives a newborn child the title El Gibbor, “Mighty God,” the same title Isaiah uses for Yahweh one chapter later, and calls him “Everlasting Father.” This essay reads the Hebrew carefully, sets the Trinitarian and Oneness readings side by side, and follows the verse into the New Testament, where God was manifest in the flesh. - [Oneness Theology: A Working Compendium](https://onegodapologetics.com/library/oneness-theology-a-working-compendium/) — A short but complete map of Oneness theology: the one God of Israel, manifested in flesh as Jesus Christ. It works through the Hebrew and Greek of the key Old and New Testament texts, the typology of the angel, the tabernacle and the priesthood, and the apostolic practice of baptism in Jesus’ name. Each contested text is set beside the strongest Trinitarian reading before it is answered. - [Ten Objections to Oneness, Answered](https://onegodapologetics.com/library/ten-objections-to-oneness-answered/) — The ten objections Oneness believers hear most often, each stated first in its strongest Trinitarian form and then answered from Scripture. The final section tests the claim that the church always confessed three persons, with names and dates from Noetus and Praxeas to the councils of 325 and 381.